Insights into Widgets blocks in Customizer, New User Experience, Block Templates

Birgit & Mark talked about their JavaScript for WordPress conference talks, answered listener questions and discussed Gutenberg plugins version 6.1 & 6.0. Mark filled us in on the highlights of the upcoming 6.2 release. Another topic was the New User Experience and Kjell Reigstad visions for a next iteration after studying the Usability test video from last month. Also discussed, Mel Choyce’s posts about the WP-Admin experience of the future Block directory, work on default styling for blocks and work needed on the Widget Customizer. Riad Benguella filed an issue thinking about Gutenberg beyond the Editor in general. Birgit reminded the listeners about the Friday July 26th, Live Q & A about AMP Stories with people involved in the development of this new feature of the AMP plugin for WordPress. (2pm EDT / 18:00 UTC). Logo design: Mark Uraine, Music: Homer Gaines.

Show Notes | Transcript

Show Notes: Links and Resources

Civic CoWorking Space in Boston

JavaScript for WordPress Conference

Slide decks

Disruptive Innovation by Mark Uraine
The Gutenberg Plugin Landscape by Birgit Pauli-Haack
98 Plugins for WordPress Block Editor

Contributor Day (Live stream)

Part One: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjPq8a66TTI
Part Two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIPftwcvPG0

Listener Questions

Gutenberg Live Q & As

Gutenberg Plugin Releases

Gutenberg 6.1

The image block link settings have been improved
REST API error messages now appear as notices
Motion animation for block reordering
Experiments are really cool!
- Introduce a new Customizer Panel to edit block-based widget areas.
- Add the block inspector to the widgets screen.
- Add a global inserter to the widgets screen.

Gutenberg 6.0

Ryan Welcher: landed his PR in Master Introduces PluginSettingsSidebar slotfill to the Document sidebar

Support choosing a pre-defined layout for the Columns block.
A11y: Make the modal overlay scrim darker.

What to expect in Gutenberg 6.2

Note: Release moved to next week after recording

Discussion of new features in broader context

Help, Block Previews and Tool Tips for New Users

Next Version of New User Experience

Default Settings for Blocks

Widget Blocks in Customizer

Block Directory - WP-Admin Screens

Expanding the Editor outside of post_content

Send questions or suggestions, or news you want us to include to changelog@gutenbergtimes.com

Transcript

Intro w/ music by Homer Gaines

Birgit: We hear this all the time.

Mark: There's so many updates. Did tons of community work happening? It's hard to keep up. How do I follow it all?

Birgit: Here is your answer. Listen to the Gutenberg Changelog.

Birgit: Hello and welcome to our first full episode of this new podcast called the Gutenberg Changelog. I'm Birgit Pauli-Haack, curator of the Gutenberg Times and I'm here with co-host Mark Uraine, Designer at Automatic and Core co-contributor to WordPress.

Thank you to our listeners!

Birgit: So before we head first into all the Gutenberg topics, we want to say thank you to the listeners who reached out to us after our intro episode. Your feedback was very, very encouraging. Thank you so much.

We started out with quite a few subscribers and hope you connect with us and leave a review on iTunes or on Google Play or Spotify, or a comment on our site.

So hi Mark. Welcome to the fast lane of your life again. How are you today?

Mark: Yeah, so I'm back after a couple of weeks of vacation. I am rejuvenated though. For those of you who don't know, I took a two week vacation traveling with my family across four states in the U.S. and it was refreshing. We got to see, I have a little fourth grader, so when you have a fourth grader, you get in the national parks for free. And so this was, we hit up some national parks and it was just a blast. You're going to, how have you been? I'm so glad to get back together with you on this. So how have you been yet?

Birgit: It is. Well, good to see you again. And, well, it sounds like an awesome vacation. Yeah, the national parks in the early or late spring, that must be wonderful.

I have been, well, I spent all day today walking around in Boston. I actually had to find the Apple Store and there was a smack in the middle of Boston, so I, and I love the state. It's a, you can walk there and you'll see the, yeah, the high rises and the old and the new, they're kind of reflect off of each other on, yeah.

Mark: It is a fun city.

Birgit: And I'm speaking from the civic workspace called District Hall where you can have a free co-working space and you can reserve last minute meeting rooms for 50% off. This was really cool.

Mark: Wow.

Birgit: Yeah. And tomorrow WordCamp in Boston starts. Congratulations to the WordPress community in Boston for their 10th anniversary of their first WordCamp.

That's some major volunteering and shows great dedication to the WordPress project. I'm looking forward to some interesting talks and meeting friends, making new ones in the hallway track, and it's going to be a fun weekend.

JavaScript for WordPress Conference

Well, last week we were wrapping up the Javascript for WordPress conference with thank yous to sponsors and speakers. It was a fantastic event. Over 600 people in the eight hours of workshop with Zac Gordon on Javascript and react for WordPress. That's a huge number. And then on the second day we had a thousand people listening to talks and four tracks.

Mark: Yeah, can you believe that four tracks of talks. Who were just, there was so many people listening in.

Birgit: Yeah, it was fabulous. Yeah. There was a Javascript track, a headless buttress track, a good move track and a less technical track. And there with 36 sessions, so it was nine hours per track.

Mark: Wow.

Birgit: And 38 speakers. So huge congratulations for the team of Zac Gordon, Fabian, Mary and Christie, all the different a fantastic job handing the green room and the emceeing of their respective tracks.

Mark: Yeah.

Birgit: And great deal of work went into the conference.

Mark: It showed like you said, they put a lot of time and effort into it and I felt very comfortable as a speaker during that. How did you feel with everything there?

Birgit: I felt very comfortable with that. Yeah, went very well. I've heard the recordings are with the editor right now. And Gordon will publish them on YouTube and on the Javascriptforwp.com website over the next few weeks and then there was a third day I, yeah, after two days.

Zac actually went into Saturday with a contributor day in about 30 people worked on the Gutenberg development documentation. So that's fantastic to get another group going on that. Those live streams are already on YouTube and we have the links in the show notes.

Disruptive Innovation

So Mark your talk was at the same time as mine. So I really missed it. And how, how did it go and what is "Disruptive Innovation"?

Mark: I was hoping to watch yours as well. Yeah, so "Disruptive Innovation", I talked about. It's processed by which, you know, a product or a service takes root as a simple alternative to an existing, to existing competitor. And then it relentlessly moves up the market eventually displacing established competitors. Christensen, clay, Clayton Christensen I believe is the person who kind of coined this disruptive innovation. And I saw in my talk, I provided some examples of companies that have disrupted industries and then I turn the conversation towards Gutenberg and kind of talked about how Gutenberg is this disruptive innovator in WordPress itself. And I mentioned how if we as a community aren't disrupting, willing to disrupt WordPress and advance it into the future, then other people will. And they will with other software. You've always gotta be willing to push ourselves and to get uncomfortable. And yeah, I, it was a fun talk. I never gave a talk like that.

Birgit: Yeah. That sounds really interesting. I really, I need to make sure to watch it on the rerun and it probably will bring back quite a few memories from the last two years when Gutenberg hatched in WordCamp Europe. And watch the space on Gutenberg Times: We will publish the all the, the link of the Gutenberg work, relevant talks from that conference.

Mark: Yeah.

Birgit: Because I think it will be really helpful for a lot of people.

Mark: But before we jump into anything else, I want to know about your talk. How'd that go? What was your talk about?

The Gutenberg Plugins Landscape

Birgit: Oh sure. Well my talk was The Gutenberg Plugins Landscape and I finally got a chance to test some of the plugins that I discovered in the WordPress.org repository and I went through the list of 98 plugins and highlighted about 25 of them in the talk and they were in six categories.

So one category were the single block, single-purpose blocks. The second one was the blocks collection then about light layout and templating plugins. And then eCommerce, and then the last one was the tools. Tools to be better with the block editor on various sections. So it was very, very interesting for me. It took a bit to prepare for it because I had to test them and did all the, I didn't want to do live stream and then also wait for other websites to wait to come on. So I had to create jifs so I could even do a talk without Internet connection. Not for that, but so it was very interesting to go through that.

And one insight was beyond the talk was that the target audience for blocks is a little bit different from those that have the juice, the mammoth page builders right now. Some of the templat-ing and block collections still feel like they are more for those building sites for others than for the bloggers and the content producers, who just want to get their work done in the most beautiful form, but not fiddle so much with be it Line height or spaces between characters. WordPress has a philosophy called "Decisions, not Options". There were some plugins that I didn't feel the plugin developers know what that meant.

Mark: Sure. I bet that happens. I bet that happens.

Birgit: But it also, yeah, it's probably easier to just put all the functions in then making decisions.

Answering Listener Questions

Block Templates & Themes

Speaking of block templates, we had a few listener questions after our intro episode and gathered them on Twitter. Ellen Bauer, she's a theme developer and you two were from New Zealand, a working in the WordPress space, ask us I would love to hear more about Gutenberg templates and your idea of how they could or should be available for users in the editor. Mark, what are you thoughts about block templates?

Mark: This question is like perfect timing. I'm actually looking at block templates this next week. It's something that we saw kind of showcased in the keynote at a WordCamp Europe from Matt. And it's something that we want to start putting effort into. There's a desire for this from people, right? I need to explore this problem and then start thinking through kind of the UX flows and the structure of everything. But this is a big request. People would love to have a page, like a block template. And I'm not even sure if that's the right word for it yet because WordPress kind of already has templates, something called templates. So we're gonna have to figure that out. But people would like that, you know, just select a block template and have it, have the layout already there with the blocks on the page. And then that way they just enter in some content. So it's something I'm definitely looking into right now.

Birgit: Well that's interesting because I know that there are quite a few plugins out there that approached that space in various different forms. I think some nice implementation I saw in the atomic blocks newest version, and if you are a developer and tried to explore that space, looking there and learn from them, it might not be a bad idea. I would not say that you, Mark, should go there, but those who are out there and trying to get a head start on that before Core comes out with it.

Mark: That's exactly what I'm going to do though. I'm going to look at what's out there, see what the community is doing, how the community is solving these issues. Though, that's how we work together. I really believe it. And if we, if there are developers out there and you know, have built things like this, now is a great opportunity. The Core team is looking at stuff like this so we can use some help, your expertise, you know.

Birgit: Excellent. Yes. And as you hear we are answering listener questions. So if you have a question, you can always tweet at us at the Gutenberg Times with the #changelog, one word, and at any time and we'll answer the questions then in the next show.

Nested Blocks & InnerBlocks

So the next question is from Luke Carbis, from Brisbane, Queensland. It's a, this is the down-under version of it obviously. So the, his question is "at getblocklab, one of the most requested features is nested blocks and the idea of putting one block inside another to create complex layouts. I think that's the same topic. Gutenberg has columns and inland blocks, but neither of those are very elegant out. What's the future of nested blocks in Gutenberg Core?"

Hi Luke. Yes, the columns are still a work in progress, but I do like the media fast text, how that flows and came together. And I feel that the color block is outright beautiful and works very well. There is also in the newest version, six point in the 6.0 I think it was already, the group block which helps you with nesting at the other blocks. But you're right, it's all a little bit still in the works, but what do you think about it Mark?

Mark: Yeah, how blocks are interacting with each other and the nested block, a scenario. These are all key points that are being worked through right now. There's some prs open about kind of adding borders to nested blocks, so you kind of, when you're inside of in the nested block, you've got to, you get a sense for where you're at in the block interface.

There's an issue I created not too long ago about complex blocks or taking simple blocks. Like, let's say you have a paragraph block and you have an image block and you want them side by side, right? Well, it would be really cool if you can take that image block, drag it and drop it onto the text block and it would convert or transform automatically into a median text block. And so being able to take simple blocks and create complex blocks out of them or working within the nested structure there.

There is, I'm seeing a need for sure for more structural blocks though. Like the grid block that is out there, the columns block, we're putting a lot of time right now into the columns block to make that easier. We're adding also to that group block, adding some more functionality there. The cover block, we'd like to open that up so you can include more blocks nested inside of it. So yeah, we're definitely paying a lot attention there.

Bug Gardening for existing Blocks

But let's see, we've got another last question is from Peter Müller from Groningen, Netherlands. And Peter says, "I like the block editor, but I still regularly experience bugs when working with basic text. Lists sometimes behave weird, links lose their URL when saving, etc. Is basic block bug cleaning still a priority or is the emphasis on new blocks?"

So I'll go ahead and answer that Peter, yes.The bug cleaning of our Core blocks are a huge priority. If you are finding bugs, please come on to GitHub and report them because we may miss them ourselves. So having people like you chime in and bring to light something that's not right is so helpful for us. We're in there triaging these issues and prioritizing them to make sure they get addressed. But that's, those are great questions from those people.

And so, yeah, Birgit, it's been a few weeks since last we talked. Let's, why don't we backtrack a bit and talk about what happened in the Gutenberg world while in between our episodes here. You have some announcements for us?

Upcoming Gutenberg Live Q & As

Birgit: I have some two Live Q and A's where we have a panel and we have also listener questions.

One comes up on July 26th at 2:00 PM Eastern Daylight and 1800 UTC. It's about AMP and Gutenberg with Cathi Bosco, Pascal Birchler and Alberto Medina. And we will discuss the making of the AMP plugin and specifically the AMP stories. Because they, the AMP stories are based on the Gutenberg block editor, I think with the version of 5.9 or 6.0.

And then the following week, right before WordCamp for publishers, we have another live Q and A on August 2nd at 2:00 PM and 1800 UTC, 2:00 PM Eastern. They let, and it's the Gutenberg for news and editorial sites with two people from an agency. Yes, we work. Thomas Eagle and Andrew Staffel and then with Peter Lukes, who is the editor of the byline times in the UK. We will discuss how developers helped streamline production process for content creation. Not only for the online version but also for the print version of the byline times. So this is gonna be really interesting.

Gutenberg version 6.1 release

You're right Mark, we had a couple of releases that we didn't, haven't talked about, and I totally missed the fast release of 6.1.1 that came out, I don't know, 24 hours after the first one or the second one from 6.1. And it had some, it had these, the widget block experimental piece actually prevented, they'd automatically convert other widgets in the Customizer to blocks, which that was not the purpose of the thing.

Mark: Right, woops.

Birgit: And then some lock properties on the block registration, for those who are not deprecated clearly enough. So where there was some missing.

Mark: And that was in the 6.1.1 chat, right?

Birgit: Yeah. And the 6.1 we had a developed 60 plus fixes and enhancements.

Mark: Wow.

Birgit: Let's pick a few. So I liked that the image block link settings has been improved. That was really cool. The rest API error messages now appear as notices, so you don't have to look into the browser console to see it actually happening, which is a huge benefit when you do support for users.

Birgit: What else is in there? Oh you can now type faster.

Mark: It's 30% faster on long posts. I love that. Anytime something is performance-based in these releases, it gets me so excited. I love scrolling to the bottom of Riyadh's posts just so I can see the table of performance that had been done.

Mark: So, and I think actually like I'm bringing this up because I think 6.0 actually decreased in a little bit of performance. So 6.1 brought us back to a really good performance.

Birgit: I'm regularly going back to some of the Gutenberg Times posts, and one of them has gotten really, really long now. So I really appreciate the emphasis on speed for the longer posts. Really helpful.

There is now motion animation on the block reordering feature, and I really like this because at the, before you were, you moved it and then you said, where did it go? Was it where I wanted it to go? And especially when you then do drag and drop, it's really helpful. I like it. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah. And with odd, that you know with adding a lot of these motions or animations in Gutenberg, we are the, the Gutenberg team is also exploring in the CSS. There's ways to do like a reduced motion setting for people who have that setting turned on in their browser. Gutenberg should detect that and recognize that so they won't do all of the animation or emotion that might be difficult for some to parse.

Birgit: Right, yeah. And then there were some experiments in 6.1 that was the introduction of the customers, a panel to edit block-based widget areas, and for also for that the block inspector as well as the global inserter.

Mark: Yeah, I'd love to chime in on the customizer one. Is very rudimentary right now, and I don't suggest anybody go run and test that out just yet. We've been doing some reviews on the widget stuff recently. Myself and Tammy Lister as well. I wrote up a bunch of issues recently to kind of address some of these issues. But we're hoping that you know that we can get these pieces fine tuned a little bit more and then we're going to bring them and try to start testing them with people in the community to try to see where we're going with this.

Birgit: Yeah, you're right. It was a little bit, I think it was a little bit too early to get into this. But it can never be early enough so it was good to see it and how it does work.

And, are you, I had a question, I don't know where I got it, but it was a question, is there some thoughts about how then themes would, well not thoughts, but documentation, how themes would actually work with that? But I think that question is still too early, because it's not yet the end version of it. So documentation will still have to wait a little bit to actually put it into the themes.

Mark: Yeah, we do need documentation, I believe around that. But they're, right now, like the widget screen currently, the existing one, and WP admin. There's basically a block version of that so you kind of have these, you have, if the theme registers these widget areas, we still like to find them but as block areas. And so now rather than just them, these areas being limited to widgets only, they're really open to any block that you can, you can add into these certain specific areas. So that's one way in which we're trying to push Gutenberg a little bit beyond the post content, beyond the editor. And hopefully brings people with us kind of into the block paradigm.

Gutenberg Release Version 6.0

Mark: Now prior to that we had, right, we had 6.0.

Birgit: 6.0 yeah, we just want to point out a few things. One is that Ryan Belcher landed his introduction to the plugin setting sideboard slot fill, but also to that for the document sidebar. Is that, did I summarize that correctly?

Mark: Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of work done there. Ryan introduced that and collaborated. There was a lot of good collaboration that went on with the team involved to try to really work that through and get it merged in.

Birgit: Yeah, 6.0 also had the support for a predefined layers for the columns block where you can then say, okay, do I want a two column or three column and then if it's three column or two column, what's the relationship between those? I really liked that. And there was also a feature in there for the accessibility. Yeah?

Mark: Yeah, those modals now kind of have a darker with what material design kind of calls a scrim, but it's the overlay to put the rest of the website into the background sort of so that the modal, or whatever needs your attention has the dominant attention. And initially we had kind of like a white screen going over the background. But with a darker one it really allows what you're required to focus on to be, to shine through and just be that focal element. So.

Upcoming Gutenberg version 6.2

Birgit: Alright. And now we anticipate the next version already have the plugin 6.2 next week. Monday is release candidate scheduled and for the final release on Wednesday. So what can we expect Mark?

Mark: Yeah, we do not stop every two weeks. There is a release of the Gutenberg Plugin. Things are always getting to in there. So coming up we've, I'll just highlight a few things that I think are interesting, but the disabled buttons right now in Gutenberg, I'm sure if anybody's seen a disabled button, probably have the most difficult time reading what it actually said because it's so light. We took a tip from Core and tried to get the color system in line with Core a little better so that disabled buttons still look like a button, and they're still they're legible. So improve accessibility. There's a, let's see, better block grouping functionality so that any registered block can be transformed into a group block. That's a pretty big one for people who are, for plugging authors who want to introduce a block and they want allow their blocks to also be grouped, you know, into sections.

Birgit: Yeah. That's very helpful. Yes.

Mark: The, let's see, the table block, cell alignment, improvements or happened, or happening, or getting merged in so that you can, right justify, left justify, or center text within a cell. Within the table block. There's improvements to the block styles, focus and active states. So the blocks often times, like the quote block, might come with various styles, styling for the quote block, and this kind of improves which style is focused, which style is active, communicates that better. And there's also the addition of a plugin, of the plugin experiment settings page. So we talked about, earlier about some of these experiments like the widgets in the customizer widget screen. Well these are going to be kind of transitioned to a settings page within Gutenberg where you can turn on these experience, experiments or have them shut off. So you don't have to be bothered by them at all.

Birgit: Yeah. You don't find your widget settings, all of them.

Mark: Yeah.

Birgit: Yeah. This podcast is not only about what's in the immediate release, or what was and what comes up, but it's also about what are people thinking in the bigger realm of things. And we want to turn, have two topics about that.

New User Experience, Help & Preview for Blocks

With what Kjell Reigstad said, he identified a few things that are not working well with the new user, new user tips. What's wrong with them, Mark?

Mark: Yeah, as Kjell mentioned in some of the issues that he's been creating there. You know, one thing we've noticed, we've been doing a usability tests weekly with Gutenberg and he's been looking through those videos, you know, interviewing other people. And one thing he's noticed as I, you know, most users don't read these tips that are initially there.

And they definitely don't advance them. So there were a couple of issue problems there. So the tips block, they block other important buttons or icons. Often times in the usability videos we would see that. The first task is kind of like enter a title to your post and the user doesn't even see where they can do that on the page because the tip is blocking that from out of sight. And then there's the position of the tips aren't ideal. There are sometimes out of context and so the tips are also, they just kind of somewhat dead ended.

Yeah, Kjell's got a few suggestions to improve on them. Those include things like moving tips inline whenever possible so that they're more contextual. That when you're actually looking to do a thing, the tip is there inside the thing that you're wanting to figure out, and it can help you right there.

Eliminating stepped tips. Since people really aren't advancing through the tips anyways. Why not just eliminate this. Then there's also a consideration starting with a single modal kind of. So first time Gutenberg users, you know there's explorations around maybe presenting them with a modal, and giving them some information about Gutenberg and helping them through that way as well.

Let's see, so in the same context, you know, editor, devs also discuss help and preview panels for blocks in the insert or window. These could be like help things in the sidebar, you know, like having a consistent place for help. There is a discussion on how third-party block developers could also use those sidebar panels to add help text for their blocks and settings.

Birgit: Yeah, and I think it would be really good for a plugin developers to chime in into those discussions, and we will have, of course, all the links in the show notes especially to those issues that Kjell has published. And I found it really helpful in looking where how spaces could be used from that. He also has on this GitHub issue, links to the first click through prototypes. So you can actually envision how it would feel when you get new tips or get them a little closer to the action interface. So if you want to see how those features are discussed and created, click on the link and from the show notes and share your thoughts, encouragement and also ideas. Because if you are plugin developer, you definitely will have brought a range of things that you can do with that.

Mark: Yeah, there's even an issue there for specific blocks, tips that help specific blocks as well. We mentioned how plug in developers would like to maybe include some tips for their block. So it'll be interesting to see how and where this lands. Definitely a positive.

Default Settings for Block Styles

So the other thing we wanted to talk about today was some, the default settings for blocks George Felipe Costa has been working on block style improvements. So the UI is changing to allow the user to select a default style. Talked about earlier just now about kind of how quote blocks have various styles, different blocks have various styles that can be applied. Often times it's difficult to select the one you want and then just have that be your default style as you continue creating your document.

Say like for example, right, we have the separator block. I like the wide separator. Unfortunately that's not the default one. So every time I add a separator to my document, I have to go into the block styles and choose wide for the wide style. But it would be awesome that I could just say, you know, in a sense like a global style where I'm like, I want the wide one to be the global default. And so whenever I add a separator it's always the light.

This is also gonna be opened up to theme developers, so we'll be able to essentially select which style that they want their theme to use as default as well. So really cool stuff.

Birgit: That is cool stuff. Yeah, that's coming up right now. You two have the same style? You would actually use a reusable block, but you don't want for every block a reusable block. That would be really helpful to have that default style there.

Block Directory - WP-Admin

Mel Joyce published an update on some of these designs about the WP admin section of the new block directory in the making. And they were really interesting and then now it comes really to life. So she shared the installed, a list of installed blocks page, the block manager that we already knew from the block inserter, and then a page for managing reusable blocks. That right now you only can go through the blog manager through the editor, but these are pages you can call in from the WP Admin left tense style.

This has been quite an active discussion on the post. Take a look and see what you're saying. Because if you want to be part of the discussion, that's a great place to air it. Your opinion is really important on that. This is a new feature for a WordPress and for the blog editor and it's definitely worth looking into that. I think I missed a page when I listed that. I think there's also a introduction to blocks a is also another page there.

Mark: Yes, that's right. Yeah, she has a few there. I think this is a great practice of surfacing some of the things that can be done with these blocks in a way that now has, is going to be helpful for people to identify and find for discoverability.

All those comments on those posts like that, they get read by these people who are designing and developing this stuff and they take it. They really like take it into consideration. So if people have opinions or thoughts and maybe use things a certain way and would like to interject their input, bring their input to the table. There's a lot of considerations. So I encourage it basically is what I'm saying.

Birgit: I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. And so the last item is.

Expanding the editor outside of post content

Mark: Yeah, last item. Riad is posted up an issue on GitHub about expanding the editor outside of post content. And for those of you who love Gutenberg as much as we do, we know that you want everyone to just jump to a full site editing experience, and we're getting there, we're getting there. This issue is kind of a lead into that way, and in abstract, you know it's a way kind of to look at the editor as a wrapper block or a container composed of like a title block and then the post content block which then allows you to enter in other blocks. So it's really just discussion right now. And conceptual ideas for how we can really expand Gutenberg to become that full site editing experience.

Birgit: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, look at it. There are a lot of thinkers in the developer and design realm about around Gutenberg and I'm glad we can highlight some of those in this podcast.

So before we end this show today, I just want to remind everyone about the next week's live Q and A on AMP stories. We'll have on the show developer, Pascal Birchler, designer Cathi and the AMP evangelist, Alberto Medina from Google. Friday, July 26, 2:00 PM Eastern daylight or 1800 UTC. I

If you go to the front page on the gutenbergtimes.com or subscribe to a YouTube channel, you will get a notification for that. Do you have any last announcements, Mark?

Mark: Yeah, I'd a just a reminder that I recently just posted the latest Gutenberg design update on the makedesignblog on WordPress.org, so check that out to see what some of the latest things in design are being worked on with Gutenberg. How about, how about we wrap up?

Birgit: Oh good.

Mark: Alright.

Birgit: Yeah, there are still some, the light out there.

Birgit: I think we did a, that's a long show.

Mark: Yeah.

Birgit: 30 minutes. We actually wanted to aim for 30 minutes, so yeah, thank you to the listeners, you just stay with us for that long.

Birgit: Oh good.

Mark: Alright.

Birgit: Yeah, there are still some, the light out there. I think we did a, that's a long show.

Mark: Yeah.

Birgit: We actually wanted to aim for 30 minutes, so yeah, thank you to the listeners, you just stay with us for that long.

Mark: So the show notes will be published on gutenbergtimes.com/podcast, and if you have any questions or suggestions or news you want to include, you want us to include, send them to changelog@gutenbergtimes.com. That's changelog@gutenbergtimes.com. So that's it. Thanks for listening everybody and a goodbye

Birgit: And goodbye until the next time.